I like how nerf is called "significant improvements" in the article.

CCP is practically a government. At least they use the same methods of crowd control.

Can you think of any reason to invade goon space other than because its goons?

Best solution.

Blitz and ignore loot.

Churn more missions and trade LP for all those lovely Sisters Probes and Virtual Implants and let the loot rot.

You actually make more ISK.

Until then, I counter your assertion with this: your "nullsec cartel devs" come from a pool of people who are insanely devoted to EVE, hence apply for a position when one opens. The "casual highsec player", being casual, and highsec, has no devotion, so doesn't apply.

Talk about your strawman. She didn't say "go die", or anything of the sort. In fact, she's easily one of the most polite people I've ever encountered in EVE.

You're just wildly grasping for something to prop up your bullshit arguments.

So I'll spell it out for you. If you're a "highsec player" you do not know or care enough about the game to be remotely qualifed to be a dev.

It's the same reason why nullsec has more CSM chairs. Because you halfwits can't figure out how to vote, or you can't be asked.

The end.

I don't speak street corner derelict, can anyone translate this for me?

Its something of a strawman argument since its trivially easy to join a nullsec organisation that has no requirement for strategic level availability. ie plenty of nullbears exist, and the only thing setting them apart from a high sec player is more acceptance of ones own role in keeping ones ships safe.

Which is also a form of PVP, extortion, griefing, robbery etc etc. This is why no-one likes bankers anymore, we can see you smirking. You're just using a specific niche to pirate and claiming some sort of ethical superiority, because no weapons were fired. And you were polite about it.

There are plenty of people with fingers in many aspects of the game, I've yet to see any one of them crying because highsec just got a well-deserved nerf. Actually a lot of them seemed to be furiously and gleefully spreadsheeting. In between laughing at Dinsdale & co.

What is the casual carebear doing other than hoovering up resources and ISK other players might use to fund warfare, in a war game.

Auditors, accountants and stock brokers are equally vile. Actually, we all are when we participate in an exploitative loop. Hence Engel's remarks , which you should really start paying attention to when you simultaneously prance about how much money you are making via rl trading vs your 'charitable endeavours'.
"placing yourselves before the world as mighty benefactors of humanity when you give back to the plundered victims the hundredth part of what belongs to them"

I dont understand reducing the efficiency of non-ore/ice refinement, and then hardcapping it at an efficiency below that of ice/ore.

It is correct that a mission/plex/ratter is better off blitzing and completing more missions/plexs/rats rather than wasting time on collecting low value loot that a) has little market value for function b) has little market value for refinement.

But this is not an argument for the change. It just evidences that it was crap to begin with, and will be even more crap after this change. Thiis change just makes that part of mission/plex/ratting even more unprofitable.

Result? This stuff will just be left on wrecks and never make it to market, either as is for their fitting function or refinement, nor as minerals refined by the player themselves. Meaning less minerals to market, and less modules.

Essentially amounts to making an unprofitable element, even less profitable.
Nor does it incentivise player skilling into non-ore/ice refinement, because the efficiency is lower, and owing to the change, very little of the "trash" modules will ever be brought off the wrecks and to market.

I did not need nerfing. It was nerfed and crap to begin with. What is the justification for doing so?

3 weeks after an expansion, all world drops are common on the WoW market, and 6 months after an expansion, all blue world drops are being sharded, epics are hard to sell and greens are being vendored, and nobody needs the blues dropping in dungeons either- which is why they have to reset the whole game.

I have meta 4 eccms, webs, painters, sebos and other stuff I use routinely (10 years after they were put in game, they all retain some value as drops).

Also I routinely loot from entties like dewak humphries and the station at the end of the maze, and those things retain useful value many, many years after their introduction to the game. (ie dewak averages about 200m isk including his box, and I use his b-type stuff on one fit too, and still want 1 more thing off his loot table too). Those weird people that pilot shield supers buy the x-type stuff from the maze.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say something people might not expect given my predilection for turning the lives of miners into a wasteland of despair at irregular intervals but...

Good.

This change will result in mining being more profitable, both for the hardcore multiboxing miner and the just-starting-newbie in his Venture.

Mining needs to have a lower break-even threshold of profitability vs. time investment so that mining is not -entirely- relegated to multiboxing madmen and the (far less scrupulous) filth macro miners, and this is a good start.

Now all we need is an interesting minigame or other way to allow actual player interaction with the mining process to discourage afk-multibox-mining over actually playing the game and we're good to go.

It is really sad. The last few months I had actually considered him a standup guy.

@Tippia:

Your evasive reply and refusal to address key facts and ramifications is now sufficient to concern me that there are indeed vested interests in these proposed changes and that all attempts to objectively discuss the actual issues will be deliberately stonewalled and sabotaged.

I will express my dissent by withdrawing from this discussion. Have it "your" way.

While I agree it's a reduction in the income from scrap, that was never really a profession anyway.

Mission runners make more isk from LP rewards and mission blitzing than from the loot, and will still be the main source of salvage.

If you look at it from the mining point of view, miners were previously getting screwed because on-the-side income from missioners was directly affecting the mineral price. On top of that, ore compression was utterly pointless as modules existed to do that job better instead. That has now been turned into a viable tradeskill.

Then you have the effect on industry. Previously, you could manufacture a whole heap of most items, then if the market dropped away just recycle them back to minerals and try something else. Now industrialists will be forced to commit to a product, which is a good thing.

And speaking objectively, if you look at this from the point of view of someone brand new, so not involved in any side of the debate, they way it will work is balanced.

not too firm a grasp, it blocks off blood flow and reduces pleasure

Better than a gang of know-nothings randomly gibbering 50 different lies like it used to be.

But, yeah, wheres this 100% currently?

Sorry, but some of us have done literally everything, I have lived in wormholes, I own 2 miners an orca/rorq and a cloaky hauler dedicated to the task of mining (let me tell you how dusty those are) I have done t2 and t3 invention i have ran missions of all levels for just about every agent I've done incursions to the tune of knocking one fully out in 5 hours when it settled in our home system while we were attacking an enemy.

Pretty much the only thing I dont know how to do in EVE is PI and those 4 miners are currently training to max PI skills since I'm out of other things to train on them.

In short, we know what the **** we're talking about when we talk, sorry that doesn't fit your narrative but we've been around for a while and probably will be around for a while longer.

lolno they really arent

They don't invest 60 billion in upgrades or have to deal with taking on enemy fleets involving tens of trillions of isk in defence of said stations.

I have flown extensively in all types of space. No place in the game is more challenging to survive in than a wormhole (assuming one is actually doing something other than sitting cloaked in a safe).

WH space is null with no local and no safe place to dock. There is no 250 man fleet of supers and support ready to cyno in to save your POS either.

Don't even try to claim null is anywhere close to WH space.

I would ask PL how much assets they had locked in B-R that was enough to throw 59 Titans at and then ask N3 how much stuff is locked into 0-W. Risk in a WH is what you are flying in, risk in 0.0 is an entire coalitions assets.

Not just high sec mission running - any non-megaBLOC nullsec groups are screwed too.

The proposed changes to reprocessing modules is a massive kick in the nuts for Hub Zero, in one change to the game CCP have cut our mineral production by close to 50%. This means that we become a lot more inefficient at building ships then we were before and it was not exactly fast before hand. The method of belt ratting, salvaging and looting was at the lower end of income generation in null, however it enabled you to be a lot harder to kill if you use our strategies and tactics.


This just might be a slobbing the nullsec blob knob move.

Its cute that you think that, but most salvagers/reprocessors are newbs.

So get better at being self sufficient. Learn new ways to keep yourself in ships.

Tippia, is this a usual thing for you? I mean is this like the best you've got? Your "A"-game?

This kind of endless repetitions and variations of circular logic, littered with little inconsistencies and smatterings of discursive dishonesty?

You realise, I hope, that this kind of conduct would be absolutely unacceptable in an actual debate?

I have to say its very tiresome and rather uninspired.
I had hope you had more intelligence and integrity than this.
Is that how you are used to "winning"?
By boring your antagonist to death?

Why are you getting worked up over a nerf to the thing that earns the least isk when running missions? Chances are you wont even notice the difference and the best way to earn isk from missions involves no looting at all.

This also just happens to be a nice little buff to miners.

I did place a remark, at the bottom of my post, about discouraging multiboxers and such, I guess you didn't see that.

lol that's not a bad idea, having missions based on the New Order would be fun! (include both sides)

Working with others is more rewarding than going solo, and now for the weather.

We used to be able to tank concord. There is a very good reason why we cant do this anymore.

Of all people to say stupid **** like that, I was not expecting it to be you. Surely you off all people understand that be more efficient with your income stream is a positive thing. It's got **** all to do with joining null. Looting then reprocessing everything is stupidly inefficient, so the complaint is "If I continue to play is a stupidly inefficient way, I won't get as many minerals".

And just for the record, even when I lose ships, I rarely claim SRP.

At the end of the day, all they are doing is changing reprocessing of modules so they can't be treated like ore. There's nothing "canned path" about that. When they've done the same for null sec, like when they nuked drone loot or when they decreased bounties, the same people that are screaming and crying now were cheering. So it's fine as long as the only people negatively affected are in null right?

And everything you just said can be easily summed up as: "Waah! Highsec isn't the best place for everything now!"

Well, suck it. Nullsec has had hideous issues with their economy, and compression and refining has been broken for years. They deserve to get out of that, they deserve to have a reason to produce their own stuff, and this is part of that.

The only thing that is actually effected negatively is a "playstyle" that consists of doing missions wrong.

Guess what, no one cares. The only people who give a damn are you highsec zealots.

What is stopping them?



If rewards in NS were not worth the Effort or time invested, then why do people bother with them? Of course this is ignoring such things as the Crystal Army that has no more :effort: put on their backs than your average HS mission runner. Perhaps a spokesman for BL. can come explain the profitable living space that Venal offers in servitude the illustrious Guristas Empire.

Where exactly did I say anything about sov null?

This is a balance to all loot, including sov null. It opens up ore compression from rorqual pilots to anyone with access to a pos. It boost pos refining efficiency. If any place gets the biggest boost from this it's WH space. Stop making assumptions that everything is about sov null just because I'm in a null group. You are the one with the issue there making everything about sov null.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Reprocessing ALL LOOT with no differentiation between reprocess and sale value is inefficient. It's not about blitzling, its about not being a moron.

Honestly mate I used to have a lot of respect for you, but this thread has made me realise how one sided your views on this game are.

This is a good and needed change for the whole game. If you want to plonk on your tinfoil hat and claim that the entire universe will collapse due to these changes be my guest. For a supposed expert in speculation you seem to be taking what is a small change and blowing it up into some huge thing.

basically your opinion's founded on what someone else's isn't

so clever

How is it? Let's be clear, who is this target that is not the most deserving? And who would you say is the most deserving?

allowing others to dictate what you think, yes

There isn't a problem with it in the first place.

Nullsec has few enough incentives as it is, it won't be fixed by taking more away, but only by more being added and made viable.

Not sure why you believe that a conspiracy theory is more likely than nullsec just being broken.

Or have to fight fleets consisting for several hundreds supers.

That doesn't really answer the question. Plain, simple and clear: when you say "it is "directed" to benefit the most a target which is not the most deserving", what target group are you talking about? Since a lot of people benefit from this change here are a lot of people you could mean and I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Hence why they risk less.

They can also dump triage carriers on invaders without fear of getting dumpstered on by titan drivebys. They don't have the same risks as a sov holding entity

And a WH citizen can collapse all wormholes but their statics. There are many groups that seal themselves into wormholes for added safety. Then if a lone scout does slip in, they still have to get their entire group in to pose a real threat. A single covops ship in null can result in a 250 man fleet appearing within seconds.

No, but they can seal up holes that lead to anywhere dangerous, and they still don't have to worry about force projection. WH space can be as safe as sov null if the group in it has the right infrastructure and protocols.

Similar arguments were made about drone poop, turned out to be twaddle.

It's basically a robot with a godawful pyramid quoting fetish - and much like my mother, it's almost always right. Don't make it subject us to 15 pages of bludgeoning you over the head until you shrivel. No offense, Trippia ;)